Lutheran and Catholic marriages AND Alsatian and Baden marriages, circa 1855

[barbaradell]

I am writing to ask if anyone else has found (circa 1855) in the Bas Rhin or in nearby Baden marriages between Lutherans and Catholics. I want to know if this was a common or uncommon occurrence. Secondly, I am curious about the frequency of marriage between Bas Rhin brides with men from Baden. In my ancestry, I believe I have a gg grandmother, a Lutheran from Gungwiller (Bas Rhin), who married a Catholic from Baden.
I have yet to find his place of birth, so I am sorry not be be more specific. Thank you.

[zanzigirl]

Hello,

Have you found the marriage record? It should give you the place of birth.

Best,
Claudine

[barbaradell]

I have not found marriage in the Bas Rhin. I looked through almost 400 records and do not see it recorded in the Tables Decennials. This leads to be believe they more than likely marred in Baden. I will spend whatever time it takes to look through thousands of marriage records there, but I am not certain if it was a Catholic or Lutheran marriage. Do you understand my dilemma? Without knowing the town, am I limited to this lengthy search?

[ericdubois]

If it was 1855 in France, it would have been a civil marriage in the Etat Civil, regardless of the religion of the spouses. The couple may have also had a religious ceremony (and a record in the church registers), but after the revolution it is the civil marriage that is legally recognized.

The pattern I found in my research is that when a couple from different towns marries, the marriage takes place in the bride's town, and the couple then moves to the groom's town (where the births of the children are found). Of course, there are exceptions.

[barbaradell]

I have looked at every 1853-1855 marriage record in the Bas Rhin. Never saw one Germanic name. I have moved my search across the border and am starting to go through every scanned 1853-1855 Catholic marriage record in the landesarchiv.bw in inventory F901 (Catholic marriages in Wurttemberg). Sounds crazy, but there is no alternative since I have no idea of the groom’s town/city. My question still remains about intermarriage during this time period and an Alsatian-born bride marrying a Baden groom. I can hardly believe it happened. Thank you for your interest.

[ericdubois]

Cross-border marriages were not common but not unusual. Remember that this border in particular moved a lot through history. Mixed religion mariages were also uncommon, but more frequent after the revolution.

As for names, remember that first names were often translated. The same person may be referred to as Jacobus in the latin baptism register, Jacques in the Etat Civil of the 1860s and Jacob in the 1870s after the annexation.

Have you found the groom's death certificate, which should mention his date and place of birth?

[barbaradell]

Eric,

Jacob and Lisette Ros (possibly an umlaut over vowel) came to the US in May 1855. I have the ship manifest. Their first child, a daughter, was born in Illinois (possibly Chicago) in September 1855; their son, my great grandfather, was born in Chicago in October 1856. Jacob Ros had died by 1860 because Lisette remarried and had many more children with her second husband, a German-speaking, Roman Catholic emigrant. (I have tracked his entire story because his surname is my surname, although we share no blood.)

They were married over 40 years. He adopted her first two kids when they married. There was not even paper work filed for adoption in the USA in 1859. The very young children just took the second husband’s last name upon the marriage.

In the American Midwest in the late 1850s, the legal system was still rather primitive. Death certificates were not always issued. I have tried to track cemetery, church and newspaper records for Jacob without success. He is not on the USA 1860 census, so we can assume he died by that date. There were some bad epidemics in Chicago between 1857 and 1860 in which almost 3,000 people died, so he may have been a victim of those.

I thank you for writing about the possibility of marriages spanning the Rhine and spanning religions. I will keep slugging through the Baden marriage records. I think it will take me 3 weeks to look through all of them. I would like to think I may find their marriage record before then.

I appreciate your help.

[ericdubois]

I did not realize Jacob died in the US. Even if you find his death certificate, it won't be as detailed as a French death certificate. If he died so soon, he probably did not file a petition for naturalization, which would contain a lot of information.

I assume this is the immigration you found: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD7J-C5M

[barbaradell]

Yes, this is the ship manifest record that shows my great great grandfather, Jacob Ros’s immigration to USA in 1855. I am seeking info about his marriage to my great great grandmother, Elisabeth (Lisette) nee Dintinger. They came to the USA together on the same ship.

I located a birth record in Gungwiller (Saverne, Bas Rhin) for an Elisabeth Dintinger (daughter of Pierre Dintinger and Dorothee nee Wittmann). The birth date is very close to the birthdate Elisabeth used in America. Another child, Georges, was born in 1834. (My Elisabeth named her first son George—named after her brother?)

But this little Dintinger family does not show up on the French census records for that town. The parents seem not to have died there either. There is a notation for a Georges Dintinger in the Tables Decennials dying in Gungwiller in 1855, but unlike the others deaths, there is no information recorded about him. It is very strange, no?

I will proceed with my work of checking every Baden marriage record as I wrote about in my earlier note. This may take me three weeks. If found, that record will provide tremendous needed information: names of parents, place of birth, and more. It will also prove that Elisabeth was born in Gungwiller or elsewhere.

Thank you, Eric, for your interest. I have heard from another source that there were marriages circa 1855 between Alsaciens and people from Baden. I have still not seen any of those records, but I only wish to find one: the one of my ancestors.

[ericdubois]

Remember that Alsace was invaded by Germany in 1870 and annexed shortly thereafter. Many Alsacians (including some of my ancestors) left the region after the annexation. That could be why you cannot find their death in the same town.

[barbaradell]

Eric,

Of course I know all about the war. In fact, my mother's family was from Rouffach. My great great grandfather did two things after that terrible war. One, he came to America alone to look at possibilities for his large family. Two, he decided instead to relocate his wife and many children to Rougemont le Chateau in the Territoire de Belfort. Consequently, my grandmother was born there in 1887. It is just a little place. I have visited several times. I was her youngest granddaughter. She died in my childhood.

Now I am looking for my paternal great great grandmother Elisabeth (perhaps called Lisette) nee Dintinger. I am not 100% sure but the birth record from April 1831 in little Gungwiller (Saverne, Bas Rhin) looks strong. She married Jacob Ros from Baden, and I believe their marriage was in Baden in 1854 or very early 1855.

They arrived in New York in May 1855. Their first child was born in Illinois in September 1855. Then my great grandfather George was born in October 1856 in Chicago.

Today I started the lengthy search through the records of the Landesarchiv Baden-Wurttemberg.
This is made more difficult because I have no German language knowlege!
But I will continue until the end.

Your English is really strong. My French is really weak these days. Vives-tu en Alsace?
Merci pour ton aide.
Barbara

[ericdubois]

I was born in the French-speaking part of Belgium and live in the US. So I'm fluent in both languages. My great-grandfather (born 1869) and his parents moved to Belgium after the annexation of Alsace.

I mentioned the 1870 war because it is not well known, overshadowed by the two world wars that followed.

Have you looked for other possible family members like Jacques DINTINGER (1 NOV 1828) and George DINTINGER (16 FEB 1834)? Sometimes the children's or even the grandchildren's marriage contain valuable information about their grandparents.

[barbaradell]

Today I spent more time looking for the marriage record. That will be my goal for awhile, but thank you for teh suggestion. I think I saw the Jaques Dintinger listing when I was going through all the Bas Rhin birth records. Georges is Elisabeth’s brother, but I see no further info on hm, except his possible death in 1855. If there was the usual information, it would be very useful. Unlike the other death records, it merely lists his name. Very odd.

The Baden records are a challenge because there is nothing like the Tables that exist in France. Some of the records are called “register books,” and they contain births, marriages, and deaths. It takes so much time to find where the marriage records begin. Other records are exclusively marriage records; those are so much easier.

[ericdubois]

Have you looked at Jacques' marriage? It looks like both parents died in 1841.
https://www.geneanet.org/archives/releves/depgn47369/276

I would check Tieffenbach and Mackwiller as possible locations for Elisabeth's marriage.

Also look at this tree. He has her ancestry for a few generations (to be verified, of course).
https://gw.geneanet.org/fziebel?lang=fr&iz=171&p=elisabeth&n=dintinger&oc=5